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Freedom Collection

Interviews with Ammar Abdulhamid

Interviewed January 7, 2011

The reason why we have a successful sort of situation in Tunisia, a less violent situation in Tunisia and then somewhat violent but not quite so situation in Egypt and why the situation was contained so quickly is because these countries had a different dynamism internally and different relationships with the international community. In Tunisia, you had an elite who had a lot of business interests with the western powers and that have a long history of cooperating, even on a security level, with western powers.

That allowed western powers to have some say in the process. It gave them leverage not over the president at the time, but over some of the generals around him to actually say, “Look, this situation is untenable. This is unacceptable. You need to do something about it.” The civil society in Tunisia was also far more structured. They have a history of contact with the West. Many of the elite spoke a number of languages, not only Arabic and French. And when you speak a different language, you also have partaken part of the culture. You are exposed to the realities in that country and in that part of the world.

So that allowed them to actually build up a system of civil society that was far more advanced than what you have seen elsewhere in the region. So people therefore you know, and outside Tunisia had some say in the process. They could mediate. They could pressure. And they could help guide the process. In Egypt, the same thing happened on a different scale. But it was still the same process. America had a lot of contact with the Egyptian army, with the Egyptian political apparatus. And that allowed the American administration to have leverage. It wasn´t easy to use that leverage, by the way.

It took a bit of work. But when they made a decision and you know, they´ve managed to actually, you know, convince people to detach themselves from [former Egyptian President Hosni] Mubarak. So it also worked because of that connection. In a country like Yemen, you also have some contact. And America had some leverage. And Saudi [Arabia] had some leverage. And that was used, as well, to facilitate a solution. It didn´t solve the problem, because Yemen had other issues as well at stake.

But at least it eased the way of [former Yemeni President Ali Abdullah] Saleh out and transformed the conflict from one issue to another. In Libya, the U.S. and France were willing to intervene. And that was sort of a different story. They took an early line on the responsibility to protect. And they decided to push [former Libyan President Muammar] Gaddafi out. It was an easier situation to intervene simply because Gadhafi´s army was really in bad shape and decrepit. And the potential risks were really few in that sense.

And still, the process of intervention was not easy. And it took longer than everyone imagined. And that´s a problem with every military campaign. Unpredictable things always happen. In Syria now, our situation is very different. You have a country that had a very minimal relationship with western powers. No western security apparatus or political government had any say, basically, with [Syrian President Bashar] Assad or any leverage with Assad. The government of Assad lived under isolation for such a long time.

It’s cozying up you know, its close relationships — it had a close relationship only with Iran and Russia and China, governments that are not interested in change in Syria at all. The only government that was pro-west that that Assad had a good relationship with was Turkey. But that was a new trend. It was not yet a highly developed relationship. Security cooperation and military cooperation was not yet sophisticated enough. So Turkey did not have as much leverage as people thought. And its leverage was outweighed by you know, what Iran, the leverage that Iran and Russia had.