Interviews with Frene Ginwala

He himself [Frederick Willem de Klerk] says that, you know, they tried to adapt apartheid, and our slogan was very clear. You cannot reform apartheid. You have to abolish it. So it was met with that kind of countermeasure. De Klerk – but the person who first started talking to us was not de Klerk. He gets the credit. It was P.W. Botha. P.W. Botha, and their initial contacts with us were what sort of people were we, particularly what sort of individual was Mandela. They knew Tambo. They did not know Mandela. So P.W. Botha’s contacts were with – were there because Mandela had said negotiate with the ANC [African National Congress]. Don’t talk to me. But then he agreed to meet.

Kobie Coetsee was the Minister of Justice, had been putting pressure on P.W. Botha, talking to him saying you need to talk to the ANC. We need to know what sort of person Mandela is. And he agreed to meet with – well, the first talks were with Kobie Coetsee, then with intelligence. Now when I asked Mandela about this, I said, “Did you agree immediately?” and he said, “I was worried. I didn’t want to talk to intelligence people,” but I think he made it a precondition.

[Frederick Willem de Klerk (1936 – ) served as President of South Africa from 1989 – 1994. Under de Klerk’s leadership the apartheid system was dismantled, the ANC’s 30 year ban ended, political prisoners were released and majority (multiracial) elections were established. Pieter Willem Botha (1916 – 2006) served as the prime minister of South Africa from 1978 to 1984 and as president from 1984 to 1989. He was a strong proponent of apartheid. In 1989, he suffered a stroke and was forced to step down from the presidency and the leadership of the ruling National Party. Oliver Tambo (1917 – 1993) was an anti-apartheid activist and a senior leader of the ANC. He served as the organization’s president from 1967 – 1991 and kept the ANC together from exile after it was banned by the South African government in 1960. Nelson Mandela (1918 – 2013) was a South African anti-apartheid revolutionary and politician who served as the first post-apartheid President of South Africa from 1994-1999. The ANC is a political party that served as the most prominent resistance movement against South Africa’s apartheid system, at times resorting to violence through its military wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe. It was officially banned by the South African government from 1960 to 1990. As apartheid collapsed, the ANC’s leader, Nelson Mandela, was elected President of South Africa in 1994 and established a democratic government. Kobie Coetsee (1931 – 2000) served as the South African Minister of Justice from 1980 – 1993 and facilitated the apartheid government’s meeting with political prisoner Nelson Mandela.]

So Niel Barnard was one of the people who was involved in this. There was also a battle within the National Party between the intelligence – the Department of Constitutional Affairs and P.W.’s office, you see, as to who would monitor whatever change was happening on this side. And P.W. won at that point. Later on he lost out, but P.W. was the one who initiated. And I asked Mandela, I said, “What did you do? How did you feel when you were going to see P.W.?” He said, “I was determined about one thing.” And then he said, “No, two things. I was determined that he would not treat me the way he treated some of the African leaders he’d met.” I said, “What’s the second thing?” He says, “That I was not going to negotiate. He had to negotiate with the ANC.”

[Dr. Niel Barnard (1949 – ) served as the head of the South African Intelligence Service from 1980 – 1992.]

So he was disarmed by P.W. Botha because when he got there, P.W. Botha stood up, greeted him, made him sit down and poured tea for him. So I – you know, when he was telling me this, I said, “So what did you -?” He said, “I was determined about those two things that I told you about.” So, because P.W. obviously treated him with respect and, but he did make clear, negotiate with the ANC, not with me. Prisoners cannot negotiate.

So that they had to negotiate with the ANC. The ANC could decide who the negotiators were, but it had to be a mandate from the ANC.

So that was the beginning of that, but then there were internal problems. De Klerk, certainly when he was coming overseas, was talking about how they were adapting and how they were reforming apartheid, but the ANC’s things very simple and the people at home did not accept those reforms, as they were put, that no, you cannot reform the system. It’s so total, it’s so comprehensive, that you have to abolish it.

The only way is to abolish it.

Frene Ginwala was born in 1932 in Johannesburg. A South African of Indian descent, Ginwala was keenly aware of the role race played in South African society. She studied law at the University of London and then returned to South Africa.

As political tensions rose between the white minority government and non-whites, Ginwala joined the African National Congress (ANC), the country’s main opposition group to the apartheid government. Following the 1960 Sharpeville Massacre, during which police shot at thousands of demonstrators protesting travel restrictions for non-whites, the government banned the ANC. Ginwala was tasked with coordinating the escape of senior ANC leader Oliver Tambo to Tanzania and establishing the organization’s external mission. She wouldn’t return to South Africa for thirty years.

During her exile, Ginwala headed the Political Research Unit in the Office of ANC President Oliver Tambo. She also served as the ANC spokesperson in the United Kingdom, often addressing matters on sanctions against South Africa’s apartheid government.

In 1990, President F.W. de Klerk’s government lifted the ANC ban and Ginwala returned to South Africa. Prior to the country’s first democratic elections in 1994, she helped set up the Women’s National Coalition, which gathered organizations from across the political spectrum to ensure women’s common interests were reflected in South Africa’s post-apartheid constitution. Ginwala was elected to parliament in 1994 where she served as Speaker of the National Assembly until 2004. As the first post-apartheid speaker, she was instrumental in setting a new course for the government, promoting an atmosphere of cooperation and reconciliation.

Since leaving government, Ginwala served as the First Chancellor of one of South Africa’s flagship universities, The University of Kwazula-Natal, until 2009. She has continued promoting democracy, good governance, development and human rights through her participation with various international organizations such as the United Nations and the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance.

South Africa is a nation of almost 53 million on the southern tip of Africa. The nation has a unique multicultural character and is approximately 80 percent African and 10 percent European, with the remaining 10 percent being of mixed race or Asian heritage. These broad racial categories include a multitude of ethnic and linguistic groups.

Although it has the largest economy on the continent, much of the nation remains in poverty and there is great economic disparity. Historically, the mining industry has played a key role in South Africa’s economy and it continues to remain an important industry today, alongside manufacturing, tourism, and financial services.

South Africa was first settled by non-natives in 1652, when the Dutch established an outpost in what would later become Cape Town. Soon after, British, French, and German settlers came to the area. The descendants of the original Dutch settlers became known as Afrikaners. Conflicts over land and power arose between the settling groups as well as between the settlers and the native people of the region. In 1910, Britain formally created the Union of South Africa as a self-governing dominion within the British Empire.

Throughout South Africa’s history, non-whites were subjected to widespread discrimination. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the government passed a series of laws institutionalizing discrimination and segregation. In the 1948 elections, the National Party, which served as a platform for Afrikaner nationalism, gained power. The National Party program was centered on the system of racial segregation known as apartheid. Supporters of apartheid argued that South Africa was made up of four distinct racial groups: white, black, “Coloured” or mixed-race, and Indian.

The white minority oppressed the African majority and other non-white groups. Black Africans were particularly disadvantaged in terms of education, housing, income, and health. Blacks were denied citizenship and not permitted to use the services and facilities accessible by the white minority. Many blacks were forced to relocate when their neighborhoods were declared “white.” A series of laws enacted in the 1950s further codified and expanded racial segregation. In part, the National Party justified its policies by branding its opponents as communists.

The African National Congress (ANC) was founded in 1912 to advocate for the rights of black South Africans. As apartheid expanded, the ANC and other groups used both nonviolent and violent actions to combat the government. The ANC and other groups were oppressed by the government, and many of their senior leaders were banned or imprisoned. Nelson Mandela, a prominent ANC leader, was imprisoned from 1962 to 1990.

In the 1970s and 1980s, the anti-apartheid movement gained strength. Foreign governments and the international community isolated South Africa. International sanctions damaged the economy and helped erode domestic support for apartheid. Meanwhile, the end of the Cold War weakened the government’s claim that yielding power would lead to a communist takeover.

In 1990, the government of South Africa took its first steps toward ending apartheid when it ended a ban on certain political organizations including the ANC. Nelson Mandela and other opposition leaders were released from prison and apartheid legislation was repealed. F.W. de Klerk, President from 1989-1994, helped to broker this transition of South Africa from the apartheid-era to a multi-racial democracy. In 1993, de Klerk and Mandela received the Nobel Peace Prize for their work.

In 1994, South Africa held its first election that allowed all adults to vote, regardless of race. The ANC gained power and Nelson Mandela was elected president. South Africa enacted a liberal, democratic constitution, backed by a strong and independent judiciary. While the ANC has remained the strongest party, elections are vigorously contested and democratic safeguards are respected. A Truth and Reconciliation Commission investigated abuses and crimes committed during the apartheid era.

Freedom House’s 2013 Freedom in the World report categorized South Africa as “free” with an overall freedom rating of two, with one being the most free and seven being the least. The country also received ratings of two in political rights and civil liberties. However, in the 2013 Freedom of the Press report, the nation was categorized as “party free” due to government restrictions on the press and the prevalence of civil cases brought against journalists for libel.