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Freedom Collection

Interviews with Frene Ginwala

Interviewed May 20, 2024

I’m Frene Ginwala.

My grandfather came to Southern Africa in about 1870, so both in what was then Lorenco Marques [Portuguese colonial capital that is now Maputo, Mozambique] and into South Africa. I, because there were – my father did not want us studying in Portuguese, we were sent to school to what was then the Transvaal where we – but these schools, it didn’t matter where in South Africa they were. They were for different racial groups. So I was in the school which was for the Indian community because we were living around Johannesburg. And I studied here in primary school. And then I went – we were sent – my father insisted we get a proper education, and a good one, so we went to India on a visit, the first visit I’d been on. And then this was during World War II and ships were being torpedoed, so we then stayed in India for four years til after the war. By that time, I went to England and got my matric [matriculation] there, did my first university programs there.

[The Transvaal was the former northeastern province of South Africa that was settled by the Dutch-speaking people known as Afrikaners in 1830.]

Whatever you did was governed by politics – where you lived, which schools you could go to, whether you could go to a playground on the beach. You couldn’t; that was for whites only, and so political questions came up. But later on, we became more actively political. Mostly the Congress movement, and that was whether it was the Indian Congress, the African National Congress, used to have – the system was not so much individual membership as having public meetings, and every time deputations were being sent or when the case was going to the United Nations, these things would happen at public meetings, so large members of the community, large numbers went to these meetings.

[The Indian Congress movement started on a regional basis in 1894 to represent the interests of the Indian minority living in South Africa. By the 1920s, the various regional organizations functioned under the umbrella of the South African Indian Congress. The African National Congress (ANC) is a political party that served as the most prominent resistance movement against South Africa’s apartheid system, at times resorting to violence through its military wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe. It was officially banned by the South African government from 1960 to 1990. As apartheid collapsed, the ANC’s leader, Nelson Mandela, was elected President of South Africa in 1994 and established a democratic government.]

“Why can’t I go to that playground? Why do I have to travel all the way from Kenton Park where we were living to Johannesburg, when there were so many schools there?” And it was explained that the laws were such that you had to stay there. And then, obviously, you grew more conscious as you started asking questions. Now, Africans couldn’t be in the city or in the main urban centers without a permit.

Now, if you had somebody working in your house or wherever, you had to give a sort of letter saying this person is working here and has permission to be out. Now, I remember being asked to write the letter. It was a copy, and I remember after that saying, “Look, I’m only about twelve years old. Why am I giving permission to the person who looked after me to be able to walk out?” And my father would explain it to us, my mother would explain it to us. So we were all – I’m sure this was happening in all – most houses.

And you always asked why, and there was never a satisfactory explanation. It was after I left the Johannesburg school, that when the police raided the school, the kids would come out and they’d let down the tires of police cars. I mean, it was something they did automatically.